Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Your system name doesn’t have to reflect who you are

2:01 AM

My system name is Yarnball emoji

Dude Ranger is my bro. We get each other, I feel like I can be myself around her and we both relate on a bunch of stuff. Ranger isn't as much of a shitposter but it just works. We hang out and we just enjoy each other. Gray I have a complicated relationship. I don't click with him as much, we had some issues and that didn't help. I think we value different stuff, ultimately.

Zen

Mmm. Most people see all of us as polite, including myself. I've heard that numerous times, except from people who know me personally. That is most definitely something of a persona that doesn't really mean anything by itself. Asterion is, for instance, the only one who is what I would directly call kind, internally. But I perceive that polite persona as a matter of calmness and vocabulary. (edited)

You can't really get the best picture of a person or a tulpa with just your interaction with them. There's a bunch of stuff happening off Discord my system does. We're typically pretty open about most of it, but ironically that might make it harder to catch up with everyone. Plus, we don't share everything everything.

Rusty

Your system name doesn’t have to reflect who you are

Yeah, I know. But we all kind of low-key hate our system name and we all decided the new one was better

frowns in anti-capitalism

2:08 AM

That's it, just to flex, my system name is now the Edgelord system.

2:09 AM

It is done.

Dear God

Tremble before my bismuth-like countenance.

Sys Corp? The way Blue imagines it, it sounds fun. Shadow System? We're the spoopy system. I'm not dark or brooding either, I'm not a huge fan of purple unless it's a soft lavender

Nobody who actually calls themselves the Shadow System is dark or brooding. That's like Shadow-The-Hedgehog level darkness, there.

I'm pretty sure we're not the only Shadow System around, and I wouldn't be surprised if some were dark and brooding

Their powers are weak and their edges have not been tempered and folded a thousand times like mine has.

You do realize embracing your edginess is how you sanitize it, right? Literally every edgy tulpa I know has reversed course once they accepted their edge and moved on Honestly though I never felt you were edgy as much as you're artificially edgy (edited)

2:32 AM

Well, either that or I have a high tolerance for edge

me rn

Rusty

My system name is Yarnball emoji

mine is literally just the first (Japanese) letter of me and Aiko's names (the 愛/Ai part) also the Japanese spelling: 愛美 (Aimi) 愛子 (Aiko) (they share the same first letter) I am uncreative but actually it gave me an idea since I was trying to think of a "tag" for all of our names to put at the end so people could tell which system we're in, and Ai means love so a heart would work (I am uncreative x2)

We can talk sometime (soon) when you have the opportunity....

It's simple and if it were to work then it would likely seem "obvious" and "of course" -- which is part of my design method for producing 'surprising' effects.

Also in the same vein, the exercises are easy and allow for constant evolution.  Likely it will take "a lot" of repetition depending on how well we do it and how we pay attention to the feedback.

In modeling experts to extract their skills or knowledge, I've often found it to surprising that when finding the "key" items they are incredibly simple.  Almost as if that is the definition of what an expert does
(though they may do a LOT of different things, the keys are usually simple.)

You ask an expert to explain "how it's done" and there'll be a place in the description where despite your skills in modeling the experts understanding, a step will appear to be skipped OR there'll be no explanation for "how"....

"So what happens when you do that?"   or  "So how do you know when that step...?" is right or complete etc.

And you might at first only hear "I just know, it's obvious" until finally the expert offers some obvious sign or sound or feeling and THAT'S IT.

We'll see.  This could be just the first of many attempts and the practice method might require a lot of iteration.  

(Took me about 6-8 weeks to figure out the key elements to create a universal knife disarm, along with the training drills to teach it -- to MYSELF -- and others.  Might sound completely different but it's about having simple keys and a method to get high quality high frequency feedback until the mind builds the neural nets to detect and apply the right forces, and to coordinate the movements without extensive thought beyond the keys which direct the 'next' movement)

3:48 AM

I think I'm following but I'm not too sure. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that the process for tulpamancy or really anything is actually simple but the expert doesn't know how to explain it because to them it's obvious? (edited)

3:49 AM

@Ringer Paladin

Evergreen | Shadow System

We all have stress, but I think it's like saying we all have autism.

Ranger is a little bit boring, but she's friendly and she's nice to be around. I like that she's generally easy to talk too and we can easily cuddle

I guess she's like a big sister in a way. Gray is harder to get close too but there's something about him I really like. He's more distant, but maybe I imprinted on him and I just want to be close to him. I feel safe around both of them, but Gray is my preferred go-to.

Agree, except that @A long kiss goodnight isn't boring; some of the best conversation here have been with @Ranger

A long kiss goodnight

I think I'm following but I'm not too sure. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that the process for tulpamancy or really anything is actually simple but the expert doesn't know how to explain it because to them it's obvious? (edited)

Yes, though with a couple of caveats: I wasn't referring to tulpamancy specifically since I haven't fully modeled anyone doing that. Though reading the modern documents seems to indicate there's nothing especially tricky and that pesistentence, attention to detail, and a few other things pretty much make it straightforward -- but again that wasn't my claim and I don't know the reality. I am saying that quite often when modeling an expert in any field, the place where the magic happens turns out to be pretty mundane or "of course that's too simple." Now this is discussing some particular skill -- experts in many fields need tons of information (e.g., schooling or experience.) That's simple too but it take a lot of work to acquire, and perhaps a lot of time. It's my experience though -- when i find an expert doing something easily and others with similar knowledge can't do it (yet), then the trick is usually the part the expert will leave out (at first) and then finally give a trivial sounding answer that is literally true and correct. I've done this enough times that when the trivial answer pops out I'm almost certain that's it and never ignore it.

I feel like my host is neglecting me. I know she doesn't mean to and that she's really busy nowadays, but I still feel very lonely and upset sometimes.

6:00 AM

We'very tried talking it out and she apologized but I still feel angry. It is really frustrating.

Lynn

I feel like my host is neglecting me. I know she doesn't mean to and that she's really busy nowadays, but I still feel very lonely and upset sometimes.

I think that most people with tulpas probably at some point have to deal with their expectations regarding time management, including their tulpas. There's a couple of things to understand about this to my mind: 1. The host or whoever is fronting has limited enthusiasm. And trying to force yourself to do "meaningful" things is the main way to make you hate them and burn out on them. If you want to let their enthusiasm recover the best way is to let them do absolutely meaningless nonsense for as long as they want without feeling like they are putting something off. 2. Ditto for above but with actual energy and focus. The majority of your day is always going to some percentage of narrow experience that probably isn't very deep. If you're working a lot, or not sleeping well, or doing studies, chances are that you're going to be tired and need to physically rest your brain. You generally don't have control of this, and your brain will continue to make the decision to handle health for you over your expectations and regardless of your opinions. It's not something you want to undo, either, really. 3. You don't need to experience this as neglect. These kinds of negative expectations are an illusion. They're a way you can take something and there's nearly always a positive way you can take something. You are ultimately making the choice here to be upset, and it doesn't have to happen. You can choose to be relaxed, positive and accept things as they come. Ultimately all you're doing by experiencing neglect is making the brain less happy, as well, which in turn makes you feel like an obligation rather than a joy - Negative emotions are not motivational, usually. 4. You also don't need to be separate from the host's life while they're not focused on you. You can choose to remain in the back of the senses perpetually, even if you're not thinking, giving you the experience of having lived life in a similar way to how the host experiences the brain autopiloting itself.

Negative experiences, internalized, tend to be a building echo chamber and cyclical. You can become very irrationally angry just bouncing anger back and forth for a little while in your head for example. For this it's more like [they don't give as much attention as you want] > [feel neglected] > [they instinctively avoid you, or don't want to interact with you] > [feel more neglected] > [repeat]. All of this is not to say they shouldn't try to do things with you, or that you shouldn't request as much. But this is all about mindset, and the more positive and accepting of your circumstances you are the more likely they are to find it easy to be around you, paradoxically. It goes the same for them, they should be approaching you with the intent of having fun, and not out of obligation. The less you attach self-meaning and care to this, the more results you'll get. (edited)

Ringer Paladin

Yes, though with a couple of caveats: I wasn't referring to tulpamancy specifically since I haven't fully modeled anyone doing that. Though reading the modern documents seems to indicate there's nothing especially tricky and that pesistentence, attention to detail, and a few other things pretty much make it straightforward -- but again that wasn't my claim and I don't know the reality. I am saying that quite often when modeling an expert in any field, the place where the magic happens turns out to be pretty mundane or "of course that's too simple." Now this is discussing some particular skill -- experts in many fields need tons of information (e.g., schooling or experience.) That's simple too but it take a lot of work to acquire, and perhaps a lot of time. It's my experience though -- when i find an expert doing something easily and others with similar knowledge can't do it (yet), then the trick is usually the part the expert will leave out (at first) and then finally give a trivial sounding answer that is literally true and correct. I've done this enough times that when the trivial answer pops out I'm almost certain that's it and never ignore it.

I think I understand. This was actually my challenge with achieving the switching I wanted- the "obvious detail" was you have to believe in a connection between you and the body, and I was wrapped up in believing switching was all about controlling the body and nothing more. In general, tulpamancy is about figuring out the right mindset for you. I think the more "true" skills like visualization and imposition involve practice and dedication, it's more like exercise. (edited)

Hey all, here to discuss tulpas Pretty new here so I don't really have a specific question to start with. Since I'm still pretty fresh to tulpamancy, anyone want to talk about new/young tulpas, especially the host's first tulpa?

3:28 PM

I have a young tulpa of my own named Reggie who'd like to talk as well, still figuring out the best way to show who's talking in text so any advice there would be appreciated

There is a bot for that

3:28 PM

Shows up like

this

In the olden days people just used different sets of brackets or an initial

how do you use the bot?

3:29 PM

I should probably go check the bot channels before asking, I'm gonna go do that

Like this?

1

good enough for now, I'll find a pfp later so, anyone here wanna talk about tulpas now that I've got that set up? We'd like to talk about new tulpas and first tulpas primarily, but we're down to talk about pretty much anything

Feel free to ask questions.

had to go for a bit, back now

4:32 PM

I'm not sure what questions to ask, really. How about: What are your thoughts on the nature of tulpa? What do you think they are, how do you think they work, etc. My own thoughts is that they're basically wetware "AI", and that the same is true of all people.

4:32 PM

I'm interested as well in the differences caused by mentally maturing in a mature body, vs maturing in a still physically developing body

4:33 PM

Reggie seems tired atm so he might not contribute much for now, he's still getting used to being awake for longer periods of time

CrazyJeb

I'm not sure what questions to ask, really. How about: What are your thoughts on the nature of tulpa? What do you think they are, how do you think they work, etc. My own thoughts is that they're basically wetware "AI", and that the same is true of all people.

We're not AI, different identities.

Could you clarify what you mean by "different identities"?

The thing that is comparable to an AI is the brain to my understanding - which in every regard is a neutral network AI, physically. Being an AI implies an underlying structure, a program. Identities aren't really like that, they're not the program, they're a feeling on top of the program.

true

Zen is pretty much exactly onto what I meant by AI

5:58 PM

Still trying to figure out exactly how tulpas work and what the restrictions are, but it seems somewhat like 2 users sharing the same OS to use as a metaphor or abstraction or whatever

To clarify, I do think tulpas are identities and not comparable to the brain/AI. I realize I didn't actually say that.

well, 2 or more I should say

5:59 PM

I think of them as AI in the way that an AI formed from a learning algorithm would be, if one was complex enough to develop self-awareness and sentience

5:59 PM

to be clear, I think of my own mind in the same way

Metaphorically rather than literally, I tend to think of tulpas and my own identity as programs with limited security access to the system. But physically, it would probably be more accurate to say abstract decision-making is the program, and that identity is part of the output and input variables.

perhaps, it's the type of thing that is really hard to self-analyze on due to the inherent user restrictions

6:04 PM

there are definitely processes that can't run in parallel and are only available to one "user" at a time, but there also seem to be lesser processes that aren't as restricted, my tulpa and I both seem to be able to process emotional responses at the same time for example memory and stuff is weird too, it'd be nice to have more research on this

I've been very focused on decision-making in the brain relatively recently: regarding the dopaminergic circuits of the brain. It's an interesting topic that's quite dense, and relevant to tulpamancy. It only comprises some of the stuff that identities actually do, but it might very well be the main reason we have it to begin with, evolutionarily.

6:05 PM

Identity's primary advantage is the ability to make judgements about one's own behaviour.

6:05 PM

Or such is what it seems to be useful for. (edited)

6:06 PM

By default, without identity the brain can only decide if a situation as a whole is good or bad. Not the cause.

6:06 PM

Purely Pavlovian thought in other words. (edited)

tulpamancy as a tool is a very interesting idea to me personally, the ability to allow another personality to grow that can avoid some of the restrictions you might have learned yourself with responsibility of course, I consider it a greater responsibility than having a child in certain regards

Zen

By default, without identity the brain can only decide if a situation as a whole is good or bad. Not the cause.

I wonder if this interacts with the restrictions on parallel processing, if multiple identities can decide if the situation is good or bad at the same time but only one can think it through at a time, the ability to think through the implications and causes of a situation

6:08 PM

it seems like surface level reactions are available without sole focus, but not much more than that from my tentative self-observation

6:08 PM

again though, it's hard to say anything for sure when using the mind to analyze itself

The abstract-thought upper dopaminergic pathway, is exactly that. It's actually one-way path with multiple dead ends. It's only capable of doing one sequence at a time, which it does in parallel with the lower, basic input-output pavlovian-esque pathway that people usually think of when they hear "dopamine".

6:09 PM

When it does this, one circuit "wins" deciding over whether to follow abstraction or sensory data.

6:10 PM

The abstract one is the weaker, because it is longer and has more failure points, whereas the more basic one is short and powerful.

I've wondered too if the personality is able to grow when not holding the sole focus, the one able to think through things more deeply

6:11 PM

I don't know the terminology for a lot of this, but does the more basic immediate response only act as an output for the current state of the identity or does it actually work to develop the identity?

the chat became big

I've been waiting for days to talk with someone about this, so I might ramble a bit

CrazyJeb

I've wondered too if the personality is able to grow when not holding the sole focus, the one able to think through things more deeply

My experience has been that there is a noticable but subtle disconnect between what thought is like when you're fronting and when you're not. I think that being grounded in the body's senses as its primary focus is inherently slightly less impulsive. But I can't be sure about that, it's experiential. (edited)

I've tried to analyze my own thoughts when Reggie holds the focus to get an idea of what it's like for him when I hold it, but without the ability to delve deeply into a continual train of thought it's hard to actually get any detailed results

6:13 PM

I still feel present, like I'm reacting to things, but only on a surface level, an immediate emotional response

6:14 PM

there've been times were we've interrupted eachother, but I'm not sure if that's actually possible to do without the identity holding the focus holding a channel open for that interruption to happen

Perhaps controversially, I pretty strongly think the brain doesn't use identity a lot of the time, and we only have the vague sense of it being used because we expect it to be there.

I've not managed to fully immerse in the mindscape yet so I can't give my experiences on fronting sadly, but I think we're getting there, mostly through the aid of hypnosis

6:15 PM

I've wondered how much difference there is between experiencing something and...what was the word you used for retroactively constructing the experience? (edited)

I think it's pretty noticable in particular when you're very focused on something mindless or intensive. Where your brain is just performing an action.

CrazyJeb

I've wondered how much difference there is between experiencing something and...what was the word you used for retroactively constructing the experience? (edited)

Confabulation

yes, I've wondered how much difference there is to the mind between the two

6:16 PM

if you still have the memory of doing it, does it matter if the memory was constructed for the operation of the mind, or the identity?

Matter in relation to what?

in relation to how it affects the mind, does a confabulated experience still develop the mind in the same way a real experience does is the rough question

For pleasure, no, probably not. It's a bit like expecting great things from mindless activity though, you're not going to have deep experiences in confabulated memory, they're the kind of thing that feel distant and barely remembered.

kind of like memories from being on autopilot perhaps

Develop? Oh no, you think memory develops. =D Let me let you in on a secret. Memory is huuugeeely flawed. Frighteningly so. It doesn't really keep memories so much as reconstruct them every time you access them.

6:18 PM

It's terrifying.

I've heard of people who go deeply into autopilot actually blanking out in their memory of that period, which would potentially support the theory of the personality not being in use at the time

6:19 PM

I think of it as the memory being compressed in a way

6:19 PM

getting rid of as much as possible while allowing for rough reconstruction when needed

Oh yes, definitely. And the important details are the feelings, not the actual... well... details.

yeah, I don't personally find the thought frightening really

6:20 PM

I've dealt with really poor memory for a while so maybe that has something to do with it

It makes it so that humans cannot rely on their memory for knowledge. And so that we always tell ourselves an incomplete story of what was always true.

6:20 PM

To be fair, that makes me amused more than terrified, but is definitely existentially horrifying for some.

that's why keeping knowledge physically is so important, I think

6:21 PM

I'm big for preservation of as much as possible

6:22 PM

my current rough theory of the mind(based on my common level of knowledge and personal experiences) is that it's analogous to a self-optimizing learning algorithm running on wetware with pre-installed behaviours and motivators